The hiring process can be daunting for organizations. IO Psychology professionals like Kendra Lyons ‘ 09, M.P.S. IO Psychology, help to make the process easier and less risky by providing valuable insights into the hiring process. In this episode of UMBC’s Mic’d Up Podcast Kendra shares with us a glimpse into the daily life of an IO Psychology professional.
What does it take to be one? What kinds of skills are necessary? How should someone test the waters to know it’s the right fit for them?
0:00 Introducing Kendra Lyons
1:09 What is the process of talent assessment?
5:34 How do you know a good fit for a job?
10:45 What do you love most about being in the field of IO Psychology?
13:20 What should you work on to be impactful in this field?
18:38 Kendra’s biggest takeaway from the program
23:11 Favorite book?
27:59 What is failure?
30:06 Key to success?
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Dennise Cardona 0:00
Hi, welcome to this episode of UMBC Mic’d Up podcast. My name is Dennise Cardona from the Office of Professional Programs. Today we are talking with Kendra Lyons. She is a graduate of our IO psychology graduate program at UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove. We hope that you enjoy this episode. Kendra, welcome to UMBC’s Mic’d Up podcast. It is wonderful to have you here today.
Kendra Lyons 0:27
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Dennise Cardona 0:29
Yes. So you graduated from UMBC’s IO Psychology graduate program? Correct?
Kendra Lyons 0:35
Yes, I graduated in 2009. So it's been a while.
Dennise Cardona 0:39
Excellent. So you have been out there in the field. I'm assuming working in the IO psychology sector in some way doing something with that?
Kendra Lyons 0:51
Yes I have. So when I graduated, I did go into a couple of different positions like HR officer, office management type positions. But then I did end up getting a position I think it was like 2012 when I started in and like a truly what I felt was a truly IO position. And I worked for a very small consulting firm that did police and fire assessments. So we worked with anybody within public safety, we would do their promotional exam. So if they wanted to get promoted, they have to take an exam, we would write the exam, validate it, administer it, it was an awesome job traveled all over learned so much about IO and assessments and just kind of public safety, there was so much there that I had no knowledge of beforehand, which was cool that I could kind of pair my education and IO and then learn this totally different field that I would never have entered in on my own. Like, there's no way I'd ever be able to be a police officer or firefighter, but it was kind of cool to, to live vicariously through them with this position that I was in. And then just recently, in 2022, I started a new position with AON within their talent assessment team, a little bit of a shift for me in that I am working more virtually. It's more of a virtual assessment platform, versus where I was very much in person doing paper pencil tests, kind of, you know, training people in front of me versus on a computer. And so we do, my current position we do, I'm still in talent assessment. So kind of stuck that route. But we do post pre-hire and post-hire assessments. Everything from, you know, determining if somebody is the right fit for a position to talent development after people have already been hired.
Dennise Cardona 2:56
Wow. So it's so similar to what I'm studying. Right now, I'm almost done with my grad program here at UMBC, for Learning and Performance Technology. And I know that some of the courses intersect with our program and your program and the IO Psychology program. The assessment part is what fascinates me in terms of I'd love to learn more about how you actually do those. So right now you're in a virtual environment, that's got a, I'm sure, obviously, the implementation of it is different than being in person. But what is the process? Like? What does that look like? Is that more like a smile sheet type of thing? Is it you know, when they call it like level one assessment, where you're just kind of gauging how they felt about certain training? Or is it true, like assessment of mastery over objectives that were set out ahead of time? How does that work?
Kendra Lyons 3:45
It's typically you're looking at either skills or abilities, type assessments, or even knowledge assessment, depending on what you're testing for. But typically, the way the process is you would do a job analysis. So you need to understand the position, you need to understand knowledge, skills, abilities, tasks that are required for the position. And so that's step number one, you know, what, what are they doing every day? How frequently are they doing it? How important are these tasks? And then from there, you build your assessment off of that job analysis. So that's kind of like the platform, and then you move from there on top of that. So once you understand the position, in my previous job, I'm kind of like I just started in this new job. So I kind of got both kinds of fresh on my brain. In my previous job when I worked with public safety. Typically, there would be what we would call an assessment center, which would have multiple measures. So different tools that you would use, there would be some sort of knowledge aspect, that would be like a multiple choice test. So they would have to take that knowledge based test, and then there would typically go into some sort of skills based test where you're looking at a roleplay, or an emergency incident, which is pretty important when you're in public safety, some sort of writing or in basket type exercise. So those would be based on that job analysis, what's important for that physician, what's required for the position? What do you need to know, day one, when you step into that role, that's really important. Anything you can be trained on, you shouldn't really be, you know, testing somebody the first day. But what you're really looking for is who's going to be the most successful in this position, who's going to do the best based on their knowledge, skills and abilities. Additionally, you're looking at things like adverse impact, you want to make sure that the test is fair that it's not adversely impacting any groups. So a lot of times why people hire out that creation of those tests, make sure that they're valid, make sure that they're fair. So that's really, that's really the basis of the kind of impactful both actually in person and virtual. For the virtual assessments, it's more looking at our pre-hire type assessments. It is more looking at are you going to be a good fit for the position, like, not only is that good for the company, but it's also good for the employee. Because if you get into a position, and you realize, oh, this is not for me, you're not gonna do well. And it might be a little while before you realize that. So now the company has invested a lot of time into you, really learning about the position, and then the sort of training and a sort of onboarding. And for you to realize, this is not, I'm not gonna like this job. So we do a lot of things like high volume. So for like, let's just say like a retail type setting, there could be a lot of people that are applying, like, like 1000s in a day. And so some of the assessment tools that we have are very good at determining what work behaviors you have, or what tendencies you have, and to see if they match up to that job analysis to see if they're a good fit for you to be in that role. And so it's really, it's really saving the company and the employee on both sides, just to make sure that you're not going into this position, tons of money spent on you, and then you're like, Yeah, this is not not a good fit. It's so smart. Yeah, it's about motivation too. I mean, if you're, if you're really not, it's not a job that's really a good fit for you and your tendencies and your behaviors, then you're not really going to be motivated to want to learn and to do well in it. So if you find that right, that right match that person is gonna be more motivated to do well and excel in the position.
Dennise Cardona 7:30
Yeah. And so this particular company that you work for even the other one that you've worked for, you pretty much are an organization that these companies would hire to be able to do this kind of work on, like sort of a consultant type basis. Am I understanding that correctly?
Kendra Lyons 7:46
Exactly. I probably should have started there. Yes. So I'm in a consulting role. I'm an external, external consultant. So I work with a variety of different clients that hire those that work with us to ensure that we're validating the tools correctly and implementing the correct tools. It's very much a partnership, there's subject matter experts that are within the company there in the roles that were, you know, that we're looking at, that we're assessing, to make sure that we've got the IO side, making sure that everything's fair, making sure everything's valid, but they also are helping us as far as you know, what's the content? What's important, what needs to go into the assessments? So it's very much a partnership. But yes, I'm an external consultant who just started there.
Dennise Cardona 8:29
Well, it's such a great, I think that's such a great service of value to organizations that you serve, because let's face it, hiring somebody, right, is, is a huge risk. And it's a huge investment. And you really want to make sure you get that right. I mean, I've been in positions where I have hired people, and you know, you just, well, six months later, they're realizing this isn't for them. So to not make those mistakes would be so helpful to organizations. So that sounds like a really purposeful type of role to be in, for sure.
Kendra Lyons 9:04
Yeah, another cool thing that, I think kind of a trend in things like pre-hire assessments or just pre applications in general, is that people don't want to take a lot of time. They want it to be fast, they want it to be efficient. And so another type of assessment that we've been using is like a gamified assessment, which I think is really cool that you're like doing these different types of like games or different types of reasoning type things where it's like, it doesn't really feel like you're being assessed. It just feels like you're playing a game.
Dennise Cardona 9:39
So kind of like what the person feels, not as maybe defensive or even anxious, too, because anxiety can creep in and ruin things.
Kendra Lyons 9:47
Exactly, exactly. And it's just more fun. It seems less burdensome, it's a little bit of a faster pace type. You know, like it's, it's not something that's going to be long and drawn out. So it's just interesting, because there's a lot of things that we're doing currently in my role that are very much on topic right now for the environment that people are in when they're applying to places or when they're, you know, looking for a job. So I think that's also cool to be able to make the right fit, but also to be able to kind of stay on top of some of the trends like quick applications, be able to get high volume to make the applications more fun, make them more seamless. So I also really enjoy that aspect.
Dennise Cardona 10:30
So the gamification part is very interesting to me too, because I know we, instructional designers, use a lot of them in their design experience, and what kind of gamification is typical in assessment like that.
Kendra Lyons 10:45
So I'm kind of new to the position, so I'm not going to do full justice to all of the different tools that we have. So I gotta preface with that. But there's definitely like memorization type games, or it's or, or it's like quick math type games. But there's, there's a wide variety, but like I said, I'm not fully versed on all the tools we have yet. It's definitely something that I'm working on, you know, with this new position, making sure that I know like the offerings that we have. But there's a variety of them, I'm just not going to do them justice. I just didn't remember the memorization one where it was like, you would have to remember numbers and the order that they were in, or it would be like different colors, like you know, that game where you like, different colors, and they flipped over. So that it's kind of like those old like those, like old school type games that you remember, but, but they're fun. Like, they're, it's just a fun application process to be able to go through and like play a game for your application.
Dennise Cardona 11:42
Yeah, and I guess they test criticality, like critical thinking skills, creativity, things of that sort. So a fun way to be able to get that out versus just asking you a blank question.
Kendra Lyons 11:53
Exactly. Sure. Exactly. Yeah. And the ones I listed are more numerical, but I know there's different types, there's different varieties of, of the gamified type applications.
Dennise Cardona 12:04
What do you love most about being in the field of IO psychology?
Kendra Lyons 12:08
I love the fact that it's almost limitless what you can, what you can go into, like, what kind of work you can be in what field you want to be in, like, if you want to be an internal consultant, if you want to be an external consultant, if you want to be an HR, like, there's just so many different varieties of work that you can be in. And I think I've mentioned this before, like, I was always really intrigued by public safety, but I was never gonna go into the field, you know, as a police or firefighter like that was never gonna happen. I'm not a good fit for that. But I got to experience that based on my work. So it is, it's, I think it's really cool. Just the variety of work that you can go into. And I think like an IO psychologist can make any business better. Like I think it's always good to employ one. And I just think that you can just experience a variety of different industries. Even now, in my position, we're not so focused on one industry, but I'm, I'm involved in a variety of industries now. So retail tech, manufacturing, and those are things that, you know, I might not have experienced otherwise, I just think that that's pretty cool. And that's maybe also a plug on consulting. But there's just such a wide variety of positions that you can go into with this degree.
Dennise Cardona 13:27
And that's appealing to a lot of people because they don't, that a lot of people fear, getting tunneled into a niche and not being able to get themselves out. And there are some fields that are very niche. And so that's very appealing, I think, to people who aren't quite sure what they want to do or what they want to focus on, and also to people who like to be surprised by, you know, gosh, I didn't even realize this could be an option. And wow, it's like you had a good experience. What would you say to somebody who is considering entering this field? What what do you think that they should work on in terms of their skills, knowledge, abilities to like, really be impactful in this kind of an industry,
Kendra Lyons 14:13
This really depends on what you're interested in. But you could go into a role where you're very focused on data. And, maybe you're not interacting with people a lot, maybe you're an introvert, and you prefer to just kind of plug away on SPSS or, you know, whatever other stats program that you might use, and that is really intriguing to you. And so then in that case, I would say, you know, definitely data analysis is going to be important. A lot of the roles that I've been in have been in front of people and so interpersonal skills are really important. Being inquisitive, you know, asking questions, not being afraid to ask questions, like, if you're not understanding something, or if you know, something doesn't make sense or even just trying to find out some more about somebody else. Interpersonal skills, it's definitely important. For that, I don't know, it's hard, it's really hard because it just depends on what you're interested in going into. When you're in this field, I would say, when it comes to considering IO, I would highly recommend taking an intro course, if that is available somewhere. In my undergrad, my degree was psychology. And I really loved psychology, like I'm very passionate about psychology, but I knew I didn't want to go a clinical route, like that was not a good fit for me. And so I had this class, Intro to IO Psych. And I loved it, I said, this is, this is beautiful, because it's business, it's psychology, it's exactly what I was interested in. And so I would say, if you're interested or thinking you might be interested in the field of IO Psych is to just take an intro course, you know, find one at a community college or if you're currently enrolled in a program, see if they have a, an intro course that could kind of introduce you to some of the topics to see really where you could take it. But also, you know, if it is a good fit for you, if you're interested in it.
Dennise Cardona 16:10
Excellent. And so kind of segue into your graduate degree in IO psychology. You've received that at UMBC. At the Universities at Shady Grove, how did the program prepare you? I mean, I know that you graduated a few years back but is there, what can you recall, in terms of how the program prepared you for your career?
Kendra Lyons 16:37
The most valuable thing that I got out of the IO psychology program at UMBC was a job. So I mean, let me back up though, because I really love this program. The faculty and staff are so passionate, they care about the students' success. All of the topics were so interesting, every single course that I took was so interesting to me. So I want to give props to the faculty of staff there because they definitely care. They're excellent. And they're working in the field. And so you're getting firsthand experience for people that know the topics that they're teaching. So that's, that's number one. But also, I did get my first job in IO psychology from UMBC. And so that was invaluable to me because I spent 10 years in that job really learning the field of IO. And so you just never know, like, exactly how those things are gonna work out. And so it's, it's, it was just great. So basically, somebody from the company that I worked with was acting like a guest. Like, I guess that she came in just to teach the course, like one course throughout the semester. And I kept that contact, and I reached out after I was done with my degree. And they did hire me on and like I said, I stayed there for 10 years. So it has been a while since I've been taking some coursework there. But that was probably the most valuable thing that was a direct line to a job within the field that I was studying. And I think that's invaluable.
Dennise Cardona 18:13
Yeah, that's really great to hear. And I know the students who are currently in the program or have just recently graduated, the program is still the same at its root at its root. And the faculty are just phenomenal. Program Director, Dr. Elliott Lassen is phenomenal. And I just students have great things to say about the experience that they gain from the classwork that they do. And from their peer groups. It's very applied. It's not just based in theory. And it's not just all textbooks, you're actually out there doing stuff. You're working with clients. You're doing a capstone. So there's a lot of that hands-on experience, that I think it's really valuable for students. What was your biggest takeaway from the program,
Kendra Lyons 18:57
I do kind of want to give a shout out to Dr. Lasson. A couple of years ago, he connected with the public policy program that's at UMBC, the main campus and worked with them to try to get a path for master's students to go get their PhD. And there's always been some other options but it was like upstate New York where you had to move like it wasn't quite viable for me. And so I did actually take him up on that relationship that he created with the Public Policy Program. So I am currently pursuing my PhD in public policy. And I have created a specialization in IO psychology because they do have different specializations like emergency management, and some people have done sociology and so I have created a specialization in IO psychology with that program. And so props to him for that for making that connection, but also he has agreed to be my dissertation chair. So I have one more semester of classes and then I'm moving into my dissertation hours. So definitely props to him for making that happen and, and creating that path for students that have completed their masters. And were considering going into their PhD, but it wasn't necessarily a viable option before. I'm very grateful for that. And I am excited to be able to go through and get my PhD and to not necessarily have an IO PhD, but it is very, it's gonna be very relevant to the field kind of a different path to take. It's not the exact path that everybody has taken. But I think it's, I think it's relevant. I think it's interesting, and I'm excited.
Dennise Cardona 20:38
It shows the value first of all of just the connections that you make when you're in the program, and the fact that they are your allies, and they are there to support you. It's such a great, that's such a great story, that's just a fantastic result of being in this program. Really happy to hear that, that you've had that success. Is there anything Kendra that I have not talked about that you want to share before we conclude this podcast episode.
Kendra Lyons 21:06
Um, I definitely think that I found some value recently within kind of connecting in other areas, not just kind of the UMBC program, but also networking outside of UMBC, but in IO type organizations. So I think that might be another piece of advice that I would give to somebody who's interested, maybe attend some of the events, there's several organizations that are in the metro DC area, there are several organizations that are still meeting virtually, so you can kind of attend webinars, and you can attend different sessions that are that are, you know, relevant, or that you might be interested in to kind of see if this is the right field for you, what I have found not only the UMBC IO Psychology program, but you know, just the the IO field in general, people that are in this field, are really wanting to help are really wanting to, you know, see, see where they can get back, see where they can help others. So it's a great community to be in, in general. But you know, on top of that, like I said, the UMBC community is one of the best. I was so grateful to go there. I'm grateful to still be going. They're not the Shady Grove campus. But you know, same same school, the networking aspect is is really important no matter what field you're going into, because it's really important to kind of meet people in your field and to be able to, you know, have those connections, whether it's through your graduate program, or whether it's through some other professional organization.
Dennise Cardona 22:45
Well said, wow, yes, I completely agree. Networking is vitally important if you want to move ahead, and you want to learn new things, which is also vital in any field that you embark in. embark on. So yes, now I love to end podcasts with general professional sort of development type questions. Are you game?
Kendra Lyons 23:08
I'm game. I'm glad you sent these out ahead of time. I've got my answers.
Dennise Cardona 23:16
Oh, what is your favorite book.
Kendra Lyons 23:19
So this one was actually really hard for me. I read a decent amount. But I don't know if I have one favorite book. So what I did is I picked two. I picked a non just like a pleasure type book. And then I picked like a, maybe a more professionally development type book. So the first thing I really like about memoirs, I read a lot of memoirs. The first one is called a piece of cake. That's more like my personal type book. It's about a woman who really started off not in a great location, not in a great spot, really not not having a lot going for her. And it goes through her entire life. And at the end of the book, she ends up coming out on top. She's very successful professionally, it's just a very inspiring book. And it's based on her life. So it's a true story. So I'd say that's probably like my personal favorite book, one that I read recently Daring Greatly by brunette Brene Brown. I don't know if it's necessarily my favorite book, but it was maybe the most impactful book. It's really about vulnerability. And I think that one thing that really resonated with me was that perfectionism is not really helping you go anywhere. It's not really helping you develop, it's not helping you in any way. So that was kind of an eye opening book for me, and I think it was, so that's why I picked that one. That was a hard question for me. I don't know why.
Dennise Cardona 24:50
I love Brene Brown and I haven't read the book, but I've seen a lot. I've listened to some of our podcasts on the subject and I've watched her on YouTube and some videos on that subject. And every single time I take something away from it, and that whole perfectionist thing really hits me because I'm a pro, I tend to be a perfectionist. Yeah. So I think one of the things that she and others, others as well, other influencers have said is that, you know, it's not about perfection, it's about progress making progress, and that you can fail, you can, you know, you can fall down and still make progress. And so it's that that's helped me to reframe the whole perfectionist lens.
Kendra Lyons 25:33
Exactly, exactly. And I definitely took that away from the book as well, because that is definitely something that I think was holding me back a little bit.
Dennise Cardona 25:39
Yeah. What is your favorite quote?
Kendra Lyons 25:45
Okay, so my favorite quote is never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be. And I really took this one to heart when I decided to go get my PhD because it's always been a dream of mine. And I never really took any steps towards it. Because I was like, Well, I don't really see a path or it'll be too hard, or it'll be too much or, and so really, what I take that quote, as meaning is that you have to really work hard, you have to kind of move towards your goal, you can't just wish for it. And even if it's small steps, it's good to take some sort of step forward towards your goal or whatever outcome that you're looking for, whether it's professional or personal. So I've really tried to take that to heart as not wishing for things but to try to at least take small steps towards them. Even if you can't take giant leaps towards one but at least small steps.
Dennise Cardona 26:35
Excellent, excellent. Kendra, what is the greatest piece of advice that you have received?
Kendra Lyons 26:43
It's a small world networking, like, especially the IO community is such a small community, try to be kind, try to, you know, don't burn bridges, try to make those connections. And because it really will either help you or hurt you in the future, I think. So networking is critical. The other one is, it's kind of an interesting one. But it's more about like not being not needing to be the smartest person in the room, surround yourself with people that are smarter than you if you can, because you're gonna be able to learn from other people, if you're not the smartest person in the room. And, and you don't feel like you need to be the smartest person in the room. Honestly, it's more about learning from others. And even if you do feel like maybe you're the smartest in one area, if there's five other people in the room, they might have five different areas that they might be able to share some knowledge with that could help you grow. So I think that those are my two, that definitely took me a little while to learn that I don't I don't need to be the smartest person in the room at all. It's almost better to like, you know, surround yourself with those with those smart people or the people that have more experience or people that are, you know, going to be able to help you grow.
Dennise Cardona 27:59
Yeah, I completely agree. It's always nice to be able to surround yourself with people who challenge you and stretch your mind and expand your mind, because otherwise you just stay static. So it's a great way to live dynamically. Yes, finish this phrase if you will, failure is.
Kendra Lyons 28:20
I feel like my answer is cliche. But it's just, I feel like failure is giving up. I think that there is a time in place to realize, okay, maybe this is not, I should not continue down this path. But I think that there needs to be multiple attempts in different formats, different ways before you say, all right, maybe this is not what I should be doing. But yeah, I think failure is giving up. And it kind of goes in line with that perfectionist and vulnerability thing that we were talking about in that just because you fail doesn't mean that you're done or that you should stop or that you should stop trying. So I think I would say failure is giving up or quitting. But with that caveat, sometimes you just need to know when to cut your losses and it's moving in a different direction.
Dennise Cardona 29:12
That's true. I recently read a book called “Go for No” and I don't remember the author's name off the top of my head. But he talked about failure as a salesperson. Hearing the word now is like, Ah, one of the biggest fears of most people is hearing the word now. And so they feel like they fail that way. But in this book, he advises her he suggests that you actually seek out as many nodes as you can, in a day's time if you can, because that's where the real growth happens. Yeah, that's when you're not afraid of it. Exactly. And use what you said your answer reminded me It touched on that. And I think it's really important don't just give up because you failed or you fell or someone said no to you. If it's really important to you and you see the value in continuing then go through as many of those as you can. Easier said than done, of course. Yeah, I agree. What do you feel is the key to success?
Kendra Lyons 30:10
I think the key to success is, being uncomfortable is pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. I have, again, I've done this a lot recently. So I feel like I was very much in my comfort zone for a long time. And I just stayed there. And I was good. And I just floated in my little comfort zone. But there was no growth. And I realized that now looking back, that I really needed to be a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit outside of my comfort zone, try new things I needed to push myself in order to grow. And if you don't feel that slight, like, Oh, I'm nervous about this, or what if I mess this up, you're not really you're not really growing it, you have to kind of push yourself outside of that a little bit. And so I really think that growth is the key to success.
Dennise Cardona 30:59
And my last question to you is, what do you wish that you learned sooner?
Kendra Lyons 31:06
So we have some incredible interns at Aon, which is my current my current employer. And I wish that I had interned, I wish that I'd intern sooner, I wish that I had chosen wisely where I interned. Because what I've noticed recently is people coming into internships, first of all props to these younger people that are going through these programs, or you know, anybody going through these programs. But I feel like when I was in my mid 20s, I was not as motivated as a lot of the people that I'm seeing coming through these master's programs in these internships, I'm so impressed. But I, I would say, internship, finding a good internship doing it while you're in the program, because there were so many times that I thought, Gosh, I wish I could be applying this, or even now afterwards, I think, oh, I need to go back and take this class now that I have something to apply it to. So that I think I wish I had learned that earlier was just to understand the value of an internship and to and to get a good internship, choose wisely to make sure that they're, you know, allowing you to actually partake in projects or allowing you to actually grow and learn versus, you know, just can you go make this copy. Both of my recent positions, the internships, I think were very, very valuable. And you were allowed to be part of the team, you were allowed to work on projects. And I think that would have been really, really helpful while I was going through this program, because you can actually, you can apply what you're learning in the classroom, because like you said, it's a very applied program, incredibly applied. And so you just need that internship to finish that that final puzzle piece. So yeah, that would be what I would say I wish I had learned sooner was just the value of an internship.
Dennise Cardona 32:58
I completely agree. I learned that as well. Like, I went to college, I worked full time, went to college did not work full time in what I was studying in college. And so when I graduated college, I felt like I was at a deficit because I was like, I didn't really, I didn't really get into it and get the experience that I need to be able to do what my degree is in. So I did that later on. I volunteered, I did what I had to do, you know, roll up my sleeves and do the work, and really just volunteer myself for a while. And then you gain the experience. And then all the light bulbs start going off. You're like, oh, yeah, that's what they were talking about. Yeah,
Kendra Lyons 33:35
exactly. I did the same thing. I was just worried about, you know, getting again, through the program. You know, I think I worked as a waitress and you know, so there's nothing wrong with that. But it was just not relevant to the classes that I was taking. So I'm very impressed by people that are going to program right now. They're taking that initiative, they're getting internships that are being involved, that are participating in professional organizations. Just very, very impressed. And I sat through some of the capstones from this last semester. Really impressed with some of the work that students are doing there. You know, all of the effort that they put into those projects. Yeah, it was very inspiring to see, I think.
Dennise Cardona 34:19
Excellent. Well, Kendra, this has been a great conversation. I've thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm very grateful to you for taking the time out of your busy day to be able to come and speak with me about this and share your insights with people who are going to be listening to this on either podcast player or on YouTube. So thank you so much.
Kendra Lyons 34:38
Yeah, thank you so much for including me. It was really great to be able to provide my perspective and my insight, and I really enjoyed speaking with you as well.
Dennise Cardona 34:47
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